Gripes about Norton AntiVirus 2001

July 19, 2003. Un-installing NAV 2001 on a computer running Windows 2000 produced the following errors

The two files reported to be in use (Defannrs.dll and NavUStub.exe) were actually deleted. The folder 'C:\Program Files\Symantec' contained Live Update files. You have to un-install Live Update separately from Norton Anti-virus, a fact not made clear during the process of un-installing NAV 2001. I have no idea how to un-register files quar32.dll and scandlvr.dll or even what it means to un-register a file.

Installing NAV 2001 on Windows 98

September 2001. This is half a gripe, half an FYI about the experiences of someone I know who installed Norton AntiVirus (NAV) 2001 under Windows 98.

As part of the installation NAV asks if you want to enable email protection. It says that it recognizes most POP3 email clients. I know what this means, but many people will not. It also says nothing about AOL email. I assume this means that it can't deal with AOL email and Symantec did not want to say so. Any AOL customer however, would be very confused as to what to do.

There are many options and choices to set up NAV to run all sorts of things automatically. Even if you opt not to run anything automatically at install time, at the first re-boot after installing NAV a warning pops up about old virus definitions. The initial install causes a program called defalert.exe to run automatically at boot time. Warning about old virus definitions is a good thing, the gripe is the stealth way it is done.

The computer was not using the Windows task scheduler (program mstask.exe) prior to installing NAV. After installing NAV it was even though no NAV scheduling options were selected at install time.

The initial software installation has to be followed by running Live Update. My advice, learned the hard way, is to only use Live Update to apply one update at a time.

Live update was run and the only update applied was to the NAV software (a program update of 260k). Installing this update required logging off the Internet and rebooting the computer. NAV was version 7.01.57 after the reboot.

The second time Live Update was run, there was another update to the NAV software (1754KB) which was applied fine and the machine had to be rebooted again. NAV was version 7.07.23D after the reboot.

The third time Live Update was run, there were three more updates to the NAV software (a Live Update update of 1374KB, a program update for rescue of 122KB and a virus protection update for the sircam worm of 194KB). All three were applied fine and yet again the machine had to be rebooted. After the reboot, NAV was still at version 7.07.23D, no change. There is no way to be sure the three updates took. At the next reboot NAV wanted to make a rescue disk.

The fourth time Live Update was run, the new virus definitions were selected despite the fact that there was another update outstanding to the rescue disks 2001 (264KB). The virus definitions downloaded (2.5 meg) but failed to install. Then NAV was shut down and restarted and Live Update run again to select the rescue related fix. This was applied fine and the machine rebooted again. The next time Live Update was run, the only thing left was the virus definitions. This time they did not download, instead the installation process started immediately - it worked fine.

The next thing done was a full virus scan of all the files on the computer. After the virus scan was completed, NAV still complained that one was needed, it was unaware of the fact that a scan just completed. Shutting down NAV and restarting it had no effect, it still was unaware of that a full scan had been done.

It takes a very long time to install Norton Anti-Virus. Probably longer than any other Windows program. The number of steps and re-boots is brutal. However, the flip side of this coin is that when you are done you have a copy of the program with all the latest bug fixes and virus definitions. It's the price we pay for protection. My only real gripe with the install process is that after updates are applied to NAV itself, there is no way to verify them. Many of the steps described above downloaded new NAV software, yet the version number of the product did not change. Also, some of the downloads changed the behavior of the product and there was no warning or explanation of this.

ZoneAlarm back to top

For a description of gripes/questions/problems running Norton AntiVirus 2001 with the ZoneAlarm firewall, see my ZoneAlarm gripes. September 12, 2001.

Live Update is Dead back to top

August 14, 2001. Twice I tried to download an update to Norton AntiVirus 2001 for the Sircam worm. This is not the usual update of the virus definitions, its an update to NAV itself. It was the only update required according to Live Update (I had recently updated the virus definitions). Both times the download failed, it never even got to the installation phase. The next day however, the download and installation was fine.

Failure loading new virus definitions using Live Update. July 21, 2001. Windows 2000 at Service Pack 2. Norton AntiVirus 2001 version 7.07.23D. The first part of Live Update detected that there were new virus definitions.

There is small bug here however. As this picture shows, Live Update reports the download status of whatever it downloads to determine what needs updating. The screen shot here shows that it had downloaded 36KB of 36KB. This is not true. The "of" value is always equal to the "downloaded so far" value. They both increase in tandem.

The first phase finishes and Norton Anti-Virus says that its time to update the virus definitions. I try to do so, resulting in this (cropped) window. The problem is that the download never starts. It sits at 0 bytes downloaded for a while (maybe 15 seconds or so)...

Then it gives up as shown here. I tried this two or three times in a row and it failed the same way each time. I closed out of the program and restarted it to no effect. At least it's polite and said thank you.

Updates Gone Bad back to top

June 17, 2001. Windows 2000 at Service Pack 1. I used Live Update to download new virus definitions without a problem. Then I violated my rule (see Other Gripes) and rather than reboot, I downloaded a program update for NAV 2001. Big mistake.

The download never really started. The display shows the number of bytes downloaded so far and it remained at zero for a while. I clicked on the CANCEL button to no avail. Rather than cancel the download, it hung too and the download progress window never went away. Instead there a message that it could take a while to stop the download. A while indeed, I waited a long time and nothing happened at all, so I re-booted.

The first time I ran NAV 2001 after the re-boot it said there were no virus definitions at all. Then I went to try the program update download again. This time it appeared to download and install just fine and then said the computer had to be re-booted. Somewhere along the line, it determined that it did have the latest virus updates (June 13, 2001).

The re-boot hung during the shutdown phase and I had to power off the computer. After restarting it, NAV 2001 was dead. The first indication was that auto-protect never fully started. There was an icon for NAV in the system tray but the red X indicating that it is not in auto-protect mode never went away (normally a little while after booting, it goes away indicating that auto-protect mode is active). I tried to run NAV 20001 and got:

No choice but to un-install and re-install. Even the un-install had problems as shown below.

Then I re-booted and re-installed and re-booted again. Lo and behold, the new copy of NAV 2001 has the latest virus updates, apparently they were not un-installed. Live update found a program update was needed. That got downloaded and installed and I re-booted for good luck. Now NAV 2001 is at version 7.01.57. Live update again found a program update was needed. This second update was downloaded and installed and the system re-booted. Now NAV 2001 is at version 7.07.23D.

All seems well except auto-protect doesn't start. I verified that NAV is configured to start auto-protect at boot time time automatically, but it doesn't. Auto-protect mode can be manually started without a problem.

Much tweaking and re-booting went on at this point to no effect, so I'll spare the details. Insert wasted hours here.

Finally a brainstorm. Windows 2000, like NT4, depends on system services. Sure enough there is a system service for NAV auto-protect (Start-> Programs -> Accessories -> System Tools -> System Information -> Software Environment -> Services). The service was set for manual starting. I changed it to be automatically started and re-booted. It worked.

At no time did NAV 2001 write any error indications in the Windows 2000 event logs.

Installing NAV 2001 on Windows 2000 back to top

February 16, 2001. I purchased Norton AntiVirus 2001 from Amazon.com by downloading it. The virus definitions in the product that I downloaded today were from July 13, 2000. Seven months old almost to the day. I think Symantec should update the virus definitions in copies of the product that are delivered electronically.

Even though I opted not to have auto-protect run at boot time, it still added three programs to the list of those run automatically at boot time: NPS Event Checker, NAV DefAlert and BACKLOG. Later when reviewing program options, I found that there is an option to control whether to run the scheduler at boot time. Turning this off, got rid of the last two of these three boot time programs.

After installing NAV 2001, I rebooted, just for good luck. The computer shut down, but did not restart. It did not respond to anything I did on the keyboard. This happened only once before, and the same thing fixed it this time, holding down the power button for a few seconds.

The first time I ran Live Update, it deleted my dial-up connection definition to my ISP! When I created a new one with a new name, the old one re-appeared after the new one was used to dial onto the net. This may be a Windows 2000 gripe rather than a NAV gripe (system was at SP1).

Live Updated detected that updates were needed to the Norton Anti-Virus software. After downloading the update, this window was shown. How is someone supposed to check if Windows Scripting Host is installed on their system or not?

Somewhere in the process of installing NAV 2001, I lost the changes I had made to the program's options. I made these changes just after installing the program and before using Live Update for the first time. In addition to new virus definitions, Live Update found updates to the NAV software. I suspect (but can't confirm this) that installing the updated NAV software, as part of Live Update, reverted all the program options back to their default settings.

Bugs with Live Update back to top

October 14, 2001. Live Update, the part of Norton Anti-Virus that keeps the virus definitions and software up to date may itself contain a security hole by which malicious hackers could load hostile code onto your system. Click here for the original report with many technical details. InfoWorld magazine also covered the story on October 11, 2001. The old version of Live Update, 1.4 is apparently very bad. The new version of Live Update, 1.6 is better, but not perfect.

The October 18, 2001 issue of the Langa List newsletter covered the Live Update problem. The discussion included a link to Symantec documentation on the issue and a link to download the latest and greatest version of Live Update 1.6.x (download file lusetup.exe).

My gripe is not that the software has a bug, software will always have bugs. My gripe is that I could not determine which version of Live Update my copy of Norton Anti Virus 2001 is using. The usual Help -> About turned up only that NAV itself is at version 7.07.23D. It said nothing about Live Update. There is also an icon for Live Update in the control panel, but again, no version number.

Someone was nice enough to tell me that with the Add/Remove Programs applet in the Control Panel, you can determine the currently installed version of Live Update. This works with NAV 2001 and NAV 2002. (October 15, 2001)

To determine the version of Live Update used with NAV version 5 however, this does not work. Using NAV v5.00.00a under Windows NT4 SP3 I found it using Help -> About -> System Info tab -> Library Versions option. The version and description columns showed the machine was using v1.4. (October 18,2001)

The October 22, 2001 issue of the Langa List newsletter included instructions from Symantec on how to determine which version of Live Update you are running. Find file luall.exe (on my Windows 2000 machine it was in C:\Program Files\Symantec\LiveUpdate. Right click on the file, get its properties and the version number will be there. The most current version is 1.63.12.0.

I run Live Update with Norton Anti-Virus 2001 regularly. I ran it today (October 24, 2001) and it said everything was up to date. But it's not. My computer has version 1.62.17.0 which is not the latest version of Live Update.

Update: After upgrading to Live Update 1.7, the same gripes about not being able to determine the Live Update version still hold. The version that NAV reports for itself (Help -> About) did not change with the upgrade to Live Update. Fortunately the Control Panel trick described above still works (as shown here) and so does getting the properties of program luall.exe, which is now 1.70.22.0. Don't ask me what LiveReg is. And while on the subject of Live Update, the readme file for version 1.7 is dated November 2001. So are many of the files including luall.exe. So why did NAV 2001 first tell me to upgrade to version 1.7 six months after it was released? May 28, 2002.

March 31, 2002. For safety, I like to make only one update to NAV at a time. Normally, the only update is to virus definitions, but occasionally there are updates to the NAV program or other components of NAV. A few days ago, there were two updates to NAV components that needed to be applied, and they were to very similar components. I didn't make notes about which components they were, but I'm pretty sure it was Live Update and LiveReg. I don't know what LiveReg is, but I suspect it is part of Live Update. The problem with two related program updates is which one to apply first. I opted at the time to apply neither. Today, one of these two updates no longer shows up when I run Live Update. How can an update to the NAV program be needed one day and no longer needed a few days later? In between, the only updates I applied were to virus definitions. Currently, only LiveReg needs to be updated.

Scheduling Live Update back to top

October 22, 2001. Norton Anti-Virus 2001 version 7.07.23D. Windows 2000 SP2. I usually prefer to update virus definitions manually. Today however, I tried scheduling Live Update to run automatically and update the virus definitions for the first time.

Using the scheduler feature, I added a scheduled event. One of the types of events that can be scheduled is Live Update. I set it up to run weekly. The best choices for running Live Update are daily, weekdays, weekly or monthly. There was no option to run it every X days. I would have preferred every 4 or 5 days.

After scheduling it, I checked the properties of this scheduled event. There was a property called "Notify before running live update" which was set to no. I would have chosen yes, but was never given a chance to do so.

Then I went to the system status screen and it says that automatic live update is disabled even though I had just scheduled it. Apparently there are two ways of doing the same thing. The automatic Live Update is another whole different section of NAV, separate from the scheduler component. That section has an option to be notified before running Live Update. What are the pros/cons of scheduling Live Update each way? Beats me.

The first time my scheduled run of Live Update ran I was not connected to the Internet. The computer beeped. There were no messages issued in the NAV user interface and there was no pop-up window generated with an alert message. If not for the fact that I had just scheduled it a little while ago, I would have had no idea why the computer beeped.

The second time the scheduled Live Update ran, I was connected to the Internet. ZoneAlarm, my firewall program, asked if NAV could access the Internet. Of course I said yes, but this means that anyone scheduling Live Update has to allow it through their firewall. There was no indication at all that Live Update was running, even on a computer doing nothing else. I don't like my computer doing things behind my back, so to speak, and not telling me what's going on. I checked the Windows 2000 Event Logs but NAV does not write to them when Live Update runs. Then I started the NAV user interface to see if there were any messages about what was going on. There were none, except for the fact that it now indicated there were no virus definitions at all (see screen shot here). Shortly this cleared up however.

One problem with scheduling Live Update is the fact that there are both virus updates and updates to the NAV program itself. Scheduled runs of Live Update pick up only virus definitions. It does not pick up updates to NAV itself. This is not brutally obvious. NAV users should be sure to periodically run Live Update manually to check for bug fixes that Symantec has made available for NAV. (updated September 5, 2002).

If you opt to automatically run Live Update via the Options button -> Live Update -> Enable Automatic Live Update, NAV does not tell you how often it will run Live Update.
Update: It turns out the schedule of live update is reflected in the Windows system scheduler. It is not available from the NAV user interface. Unbelievably, it defaults to checking for virus updates every five minutes. I kid you not. (June 24,2002)

Scheduling A Message back to top

I used the scheduling feature to schedule a message to be displayed one time only in the very near future. Setting this up is fairly easy and straightforward. When the time arrived for the message to be displayed, the computer was turned off. You might think that the next time the computer is running and NAV is started, that it would display the overdue message. However, you'd be wrong. It ignored the message.

The properties of the scheduler entry show "last run" of never and "next run" is blank. The Norton Program Scheduler service is automatically started on the machine. It seems the NAV scheduler never looks back in time which is a big bug.

Just for good luck, I changed the schedule of the message to the same date/time it already was. NAV did not bother warning me that the date was in the past. Neither did it display the message.

Running Programs at Boot Time back to top

November 2, 2001. Norton Anti-Virus 2001 version 7.07.23D under Windows 2000 SP2.

I don't want anything running on my computer at boot time that absolutely does not have to run. The less the computer does as part of the boot process, the less that can go wrong. As important as an anti-virus program is, I don't have NAV running at boot time. I do use the auto-protect feature, but I enable NAV and auto-protect manually after the operating system is up and running. Despite this, NAV has two programs set up to run automatically at boot time.

The first program is known as "NPS Event Checker." NPS is Norton Program Scheduler. The file is npscheck.exe and it resides in c:\program files\navnt. It gets invoked at boot time due to a registry setting. The second program is poproxy.exe in the same directory. It too runs due to a registry setting and is part of the Norton eMail protection. Poproxy uses a non-trivial amount of memory.

Is it really necessary to have these two programs run at boot time, especially since NAV itself does not run? I used Startup Cop to prevent them from getting invoked when my computer boots.

While program npscheck.exe no longer runs at boot time, NAV has other hooks in the boot process. After a clean boot, Task Manager showed that program npssvc.exe was running. The properties of this file show that it is the "Norton Program Scheduler Service". A service has to be automatically started for it to cause a program to run during the boot process. The services applet in the control panel showed that the Norton Program Scheduler Service is automatically started. I changed this to be manually started and restarted the computer. The change did prevent program npssvc.exe from running at boot time.

Now that I've turned both scheduler related programs off, the question is whether I went too far. The basic NAV functions of virus scanning still work. To test whether NAV could still schedule events I scheduled a message to be displayed one time. NAV was smart enough to warn me that the scheduler was not running and asked if I wanted to run it. I said yes, and npssvc.exe was again running. The scheduling of the message worked fine, it was displayed at the scheduled time.

Neither of these programs (npssvc and npscheck) need to run at boot time if you are not using NAV scheduled events.

Twice after making this change, I had to make it again. In the days since I first changed it, something changed the profile for the Norton Program Scheduler service back to automatic after I had twice made it manual. It turns out that when Norton detects the need for the scheduler service and asks if you want to start it, it not only starts it, but it also changes the service definition so that it is automatically started at boot time.

Update: April 10, 2002. I scheduled a one time message and NAV correctly warned that its scheduler was not enabled and asked if I wanted to enable it. Of course, I said yes and noted, as before, in the Services Applet (in Administrative Tools in the Control Panel) that NAV had changed the Norton Program Scheduler service from a manual start-up to an automatic start-up. This is not necessary. Turning on the service is separate and distinct from its default mode at boot time. It needed to turn on the service, it did not need to change the default mode at boot time. Knowing this, I left the scheduler service running, but changed the boot time behavior back to manual. Then I scheduled another one-time event and rather than being happy that the scheduler service was running, NAV objected. It said the service was not running (a lie) and asked if I wanted to enable it. I said yes, and again, it changed the startup action to automatic. I changed it again back to manual and the scheduled events ran fine.

Without program poproxy.exe running at boot time, I started NAV manually, turned on auto-protect and everything seemed to run fine. Until I tried to get my email and couldn't. When using NAV to scan incoming email messages, you can not get your email without program poproxy.exe running. Unlike the scheduler however, NAV does not detect that it needs this program and ask you to start it. Instead you get an error message about a failure contacting the fudged up email server address. Debugging this requires an understanding of how NAV changes your email program configuration to allow it to scan incoming messages.

I fixed the problem by starting NAV and bringing up the window for configuring email protection. I made no changes, clicked on the OK button and this started the poproxy program. I know this because my firewall program (ZoneAlarm) asked if I wanted to give the program server rights. I said yes, restarted my email program, and all was well. As a test, I answered no to this question another time and could also get my email.

Because NAV can not dynamically start program poproxy when needed, you have to run the program automatically at boot time. This is true, even if NAV itself does not run at boot time.

December 28, 2001. NAV 2001 version 7.07.23D under Windows 2000 SP2. I was starting NAV manually and as such the NAV Auto-Protect service was set to start manually. All was well. Then I tried starting NAV automatically at boot time. In the Options for Auto-Protect, I checked the box for "Start Auto-Protect when Windows starts up." It didn't work. NAV started at boot time, but the icon for it in the system tray was covered by a red X that never went away. Previously I had only seen that red X for the few seconds it took NAV to start up. The problem turned out to be the Auto-Protect service. When I changed its definition so that it automatically started at boot time, all was well.

Running When it's Not Running back to top

February 15, 2002. Norton Anti-Virus 2001 version 7.07.23D under Windows 2000 SP2. Norton Anti-Virus does not, for the most part, start automatically when my computer boots up (see above item). The NAV application is not visible in the system tray. Usually, I manually start it and put it in auto-protect mode after the comptuer has booted. But sometimes I forget. Today when I forgot, I noticed that Word 2000 requested a virus scan when I double clicked on a .doc file. I have also noticed that without NAV running, its script blocking feature gets invoked when I run a .vbs file via Windows Scripting Host.

When NAV is scanning inbound email, a small yellow envelope icon appears in the system tray. It is shown here on the right. This feature also gets invoked even though the NAV application is not running (the NAV icon does not appear in the system tray).

On the whole, this is probably good news. Still, the fact that off is not off is unnerving. If there was a need to really shut down NAV, I don't know if it's possible.

NAV Alert Service Doing Nothing back to top

Another component of NAV is the Alert Service. This is a Windows 2000 service, viewable and controllable by the Services applet in the Administrative Tools section of the control panel. I came across this in two ways. Back in December 2001, I ran into when I noticed the program that implements the service was running. The program is alertsvc.exe in C:\Program Files\Navnt. It is dated February 14, 2001 and is version 7.07.00.23. Today, I ran across it again when using a program called Active Ports, that shows you all the TCP and UDP ports in use on your computer. While not connected to the Internet, Active Ports showed that the NAV alert service was listening on two ports: TCP port 1027 and UDP port 1028.

Any program listening to a TCP or UDP port is a potential security problem. What's the benefit of the alert service that makes the risk of its listening on a port worthwhile? Apparently none. As far as I can tell, it does nothing.

The NAV Options function, in the Other section, has two Alert related options. They are both off, so that's not what it does. Auto Live Update is not being used and neither is the NAV scheduler, so it's not for them. NAV help says nothing about it.

To try and see what functions used the alert service, I turned it off via the Services applet. The two ports were no longer being listened to, virus scans continued to work, Live Update continued to work. All seems to be well. To confirm it does nothing, my firewall had been set to not allow the alert service to function as a TCP/IP server.

The NAV alert service is defined with a "manual" start-up. Despite this, when NAV 2001 is set to run in auto-protect mode at boot time, the Alert Service gets started and program alertsvc.exe runs (the program uses a non-trivial amount of memory). Changing NAV 2001 so that it does not run at boot time, prevents program alertsvc.exe from also running at boot time. When NAV is manually started, the Alert program still does not run. However, when auto-protect is turned on, this does initiate the alert service. But since, auto-protect seems to work after the service was stopped, all indications are that it does nothing. Nothing useful that is. It does open a potential security hole on your computer.

To insure that the alert service does not run, I disabled it using the Services applet. This unfortunately caused its own problems. When I manually started auto-protect mode (also called real time scanning by NAV 2001) I got the error shown here at the right. Auto-protect mode would not start without the NAV alert service. Symantec also has a bug in the NAV user interface. Despite the error shown here, the user interface (from where I tried to start auto-protect mode) showed that auto-protect was running. Not true. My only indication that it was not running was from the NAV icon in the system tray, which had a big red X over it. Shutting down the user interface and restarting it showed that auto-protect mode was, in fact, not running. I assume this is a new bug for Symantec because all my NAV software is up to date as of April 16, 2002 (according to Live Update).

Without any options in the matter, I changed the NAV alert service to again be enabled and manually started. Since NAV insists on running its alert service, I went into my firewall (ZoneAlarm) and made sure that program alertsvc.exe could both not access the Internet and also not function as a server. Take that.

In all the detail, lets not forget that part of this gripe is that I still have no idea what the NAV alert service does. NAV cares about it enough that it won't go into auto-protect mode without it, but Symantec doesn't care enough to document what it does.

Other Gripes and FYIs back to top

Norton AntiVirus 2000 had a big button to turn automatic protection ON and OFF. NAV 2001 does not. You just have to know to double click on the red warning message in the user interface about auto-protect being off.

After just installing NAV 2001 live update tells you about new virus definitions. Fine. However, it also tells you about updates to NAV 2001 itself (called program updates). The gripe here is that there are multiple program updates, they have not been combined. After running live update to get a first program update, you have to go back and run live update again to get a second program update. An inexperienced user might think this is a a bug and not realize it is standard operating procedure. Just to be safe, I don't like to update more than one thing at a time and I like to re-boot the computer after every update. Two program updates and a virus definition update means lots and lots of re-booting and downloading to get NAV 2001 current.

FYI: The main tech support for Norton AntiVirus is here. You have to select a particular version of NAV. Symantec also provides an online knowledge base for current products and one for old products.

FYI: BugToaster documents a crash with Norton AntiVirus 7 (a.k.a 2001) when accessed through Windows Explorer.

FYI: The NAV scheduler feature can be used to set reminders for yourself. Among the things that can be scheduled is the simple display of a short text message. With NAV 2001 the message is displayed in a window that does not lose focus, which guarantees that you won't miss it. In other words, if you are in another application when the reminder message is displayed, you will definitely see the message displayed, even if you shift to work in still another application. There is also an option to beep when the scheduled event occurs, further insuring you won't miss the event notification.

FYI: In the December 10, 2001 issue of InfoWorld magazine, Ed Foster writes about how McAfee deals with old releases of its anti-virus software. In short, Symantec/Norton is much more tolerant of old product releases than McAfee. Readers of his Gripe Line column complained that after downloading the latest virus definitions they started experiencing problems. It turns out that McAfee supports versions of its anti-virus program for "at least one year". After that "updates may not work as they won't be tested with the older engines".

Subscription Snafu Angers Norton Users. Tom Mainelli, PC World Magazine. January 23, 2002. Symantec acknowledges that renewing its AntiVirus protection is unusually tough, but a fix is in the works. Antivirus software requires regular updates of virus definition to work correctly; major vendors like Symantec generally include a year of upgrades via the Internet. After that, Symantec charges owners of the full version of its software $10 for each additional year (users of bundled trial-versions of the software pay $20 for each additional year).

Norton AntiVirus 2001

Un-Installing